Conversation 9

Mr. Sumday—Have you heard, Friend Wright, that old Grandma Good is dead?

Mr. Wright—Why, no; I did not even know she had been sick. I think I saw her out in her yard a few days ago.

Mr. Sumday—Oh, yes; she was sick only a few hours. She died last evening. Her dying testimony was that she would be saved in heaven. She has been a member of our church for sixty years and never in all that time did she profess to have a present experience of salvation; but she expected, she hoped, to be saved in heaven. Now, would you tell me that she has not gone to heaven?

Mr. Wright—No, I am not going to tell you any such thing. I leave all such cases in the hands of a just God. He will deal with her according to His Word. The Bible says plainly, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”* (John 3:3) She may have been born again for ought I know; but this I do know, that without that experience she or I or you or anyone else cannot go to heaven.

Mr. Sumday—She believed in being born again or converted in just this way: conversion is simply a turning-around. Mr. Truman here says he is a sinner; now, all there is in conversion for him is to decide that he will be a better man, that he will take upon himself the profession and duties of a Christian.

This idea of a miraculous work in the heart, of great joy and peace flooding the soul, of being made new, etc.—Grandma Good never believed in it, and neither do I. Whatever influence your talks may have had over me at first was all removed last evening when I saw that good old woman die.

Mr. Wright—The gospel of Jesus Christ comes to the souls of men as the balmy days of spring comes to nature—it brings life and joy. The gospel is good news. The heart that receives the gospel feels its love as truly as man ever felt the love of woman; that heart tastes its sweetness as truly as man ever tasted the flavor of the most delicious fruits; it hears the melody of the gospel’s song as truly as you ever heard the song of birds in June; it is delighted by the aroma of grace as truly as man was ever delighted by the fragrance of orange blossoms.

Mr. Sumday—The text on which I have founded my belief is found in Matthew 24:13—“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” In this life, there is something to endure; beyond this life, or after the end, there is salvation. I believe in a future salvation and a future salvation only.

Mr. Wright—I believe in a future salvation, but to say there is no salvation other than a future salvation is to say so in the face of many plain texts of Scripture that positively teach to the contrary. Such a course is dangerous.

Mr. Sumday—I did not know that you believed in a future salvation at all.

Mr. Wright—Why, I believe all the Bible and the text you just read speaks of a salvation beyond the end of life.

Let me tell you, as I have told Mr. Works and Mr. Waters, there are different phases of the term salvation as used in the Bible. Mr. Works says that salvation is by works and works only. There is a salvation by works, but that is only one phase of salvation.

Mr. Waters says that salvation is by baptism. There is a salvation by baptism, but that is only another phase of the term as we have it used in the Bible.

You say that salvation is future, and future only. There is a salvation future, but that is only another phase of the term.

Mr. Sumday—Well, I am glad I have met you and had these talks with you. We cannot all be of the same opinion. So you go your way, and I will go mine, and I trust we shall both get to heaven. I must be going now.

Mr. Wright—It is not your way nor my way that will lead us to heaven, but the Bible way; unless we take that way we shall never reach heaven. It is early, so do not go yet. I want to say that the Bible teaches a salvation by works, a salvation by baptism, a salvation future, but it also teaches a salvation by grace through faith. This salvation is present. It is a salvation from sin, the salvation that prepares us for the future salvation. Let me explain this future salvation to you.

Mr. Sumday—I think I understand it.

Mr. Wright—You see, as long as we are here in the flesh we are creatures subject to temptation, but if we overcome the temptations and keep from committing sin unto the end, then we shall be forever saved, or forever safe. Here, there is a possibility of losing our present experience of salvation and of being lost eternally; but if we watch and pray and endure unto the end, we shall then gain that blessed place where temptations never come and where we shall be saved forever. Don’t you, can’t you see?

Mr. Sumday—I can see what you mean, and I must, as an honest man, confess that it looks good and reasonable, but I have never had any present experience of salvation from sin, no flooding of the soul with joy. Your reasoning and the scriptures you have read have exerted a convincing power upon me; but think of it, I have professed this way for many years, and for me to change now, bringing the censure and criticism of my good brethren upon me, I tell you, it is too humiliating. I cannot do it! I would rather die and be l—

Mr. Wright—Don’t say that, please don’t. If you would only get the experience God has for you, you would be so filled with peace and love that you would be disturbed but little by the scorns of your church people.

Mr. Sumday—If I were to get the experience you have been talking about, they would turn me out of the church, and I could never stand that.

Mr. Wright—When they turn you out, Christ will take you in. Would you rather be turned out by the church and taken in by Christ, or turned out by Christ and taken in by the church?

Mr. Sumday—I would rather be taken in by Christ. Oh, may He have mercy upon me! But I am not going to give in, I have taken this way too long to turn from it now. I will take my chances. If I am lost, I shall not be the only one lost; so I just won’t do it, that is all there is about it; I won’t do it. I am going now, so goodbye.

Mr. Wright—I am sorry to see you go now. Won’t you stay a little longer? I have some more good things to say to you and some more very encouraging and convincing scriptures to read to you.

Mr. Sumday—You have read too many to me now. I wish I had never come to have a talk with you. Your talks were troubling me some, but when I saw Grandma Good die last evening and heard her say that she expected to go to heaven, it consoled me greatly for she believed just as I had been believing. Your talk today, however, and epecially the explanation you give of the text on which I had built my fondest hopes, has unsettled me. I was contented before I had these talks; now I do not know that I ever shall be contented again.

Mr. Wright—Let me say this much more to you. A man has a roll of money in his pocket. It is his; he has it in his possession; he feels it; he knows he has it; he knows also that there is danger of losing it; but someday when he can go to the city, he will deposit it in the bank, and then, it will be safe.

Your soul can be saved now. You can have salvation. You can feel it; you can know you have it. I admit the possibility of your losing it while here in the flesh; but if you watch and pray, you can keep it, and someday you shall go to that “city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”* (Hebrews 11:10) There you can deposit it in the bank of eternal life where it will be safe forever. But, oh, my dear friend, you must get it here, or you shall have nothing to deposit when you get there.

Mr. Sumday—I respect you, Friend Wright; but allow me to say I do not care to hear any more. I am going now.

Mr. Wright—Come over again in a few days. Won’t you come? I would be very glad to have you come.

Mr. Sumday—No, I do not think I shall come anymore. I shall try to get reconciled in my old way. Goodbye.

(Mr. Sumday leaves.)

Mr. Wright—I wish, Mr. Truman, that you would try to get him to come back again; the Holy Spirit is striving with him. He is not far from the kingdom of God. May God pluck him as a brand from the burning!

Mr. Truman—I shall try my very best to get him to come. It is hard for those who have long been taught that cold, formal religion to ever see the true way.

I see you believe that although we do have a present experience of salvation, there is a possibility of losing it. I have a neighbor who says that when we are once in grace, we can never fall. I would like to bring him over to have a talk with you, if you do not object.

Mr. Wright—I have no objection. I shall be very glad to have him come. I did not discern that the truth was getting hold of Mr. Sumday as it was.

Mr. Truman—I knew it from what he would say to me, but he tried to keep it hid from you, Mr. Wright. He is calling me, so I shall go.

Mr. Wright—Bring Mr. Sumday over again soon if you can, and that other man also.